Episode Transcript
[00:00:18] Speaker A: Hey, everyone, I'm Oliver.
[00:00:20] Speaker B: And I'm Jello.
[00:00:21] Speaker A: And this is the differing cinematic tastes of Jello and Oliver. And we are back with episode six. I know we said we'd stop giving you the episode number, but I decided not to. So we are going to.
It's been a while since we recorded. I mean, we're releasing these weekly, but it's been a while at some point.
[00:00:41] Speaker B: We will not be releasing them weekly.
[00:00:46] Speaker A: We've still got a couple queued up. I mean, we're recording this live and it's coming out the weekend.
I don't even know where we were going there. Lost my train of thought. But anyway, Jello, how are you? That's where I was going to go. Just because we haven't done any movies for a while. So the spacing out of these movies was kind of different. I think we watched like one one week and then the second one the next week and then we haven't recorded for a while.
[00:01:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm going to have to dig into my memory vaults.
[00:01:27] Speaker A: I know I honestly had to, like, for a split second had to think about what movie I had picked for.
So we are going to get right into it. Our movies for today are Tinker Taylor, Soldier Spy and the American President. And we will start with Tinker Taylor Soldier Spy, which, if I have to say that every single time, it's going to get old. Yeah, we'll just call it Tinker if we have to.
[00:01:54] Speaker B: Tinker.
[00:01:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
I'll say it one more time. Tinker Taylor's Soldier Spy is a 2011 film directed by Thomas Alfredson and it stars basically every British person in the world. Gary Oldman, Benedict Cumberbatch, Colin Firth, Tom Hardy, Toby Jones, John Hurt, Mark Strong, and other people who I just didn't feel like mentioning everyone.
But that is like a ridiculous cast of British people.
[00:02:21] Speaker B: It really is. And I feel like that kind of plays into at least sort of what my thoughts about the movie are. But whatever. This is about you, Oliver.
[00:02:35] Speaker A: I mean, it's a big cast and a lot of them don't really do a ton, but I was impressed just by the name recognition in this. And we'll get into that too, with the American president later. But these were both movies with big casts. So why did you choose this movie for me?
[00:02:56] Speaker B: I chose this movie for you because well, you asked me, is Tinker Taylor worth $5? And I was like, yes.
And I hesitated because it was really a movie. Not that I didn't think you would enjoy, but it's definitely a weird movie.
It's interesting to watch.
It's unenjoyable in an interesting way. So I was like, yeah, I really feel like Oliver needs to see this one.
[00:03:30] Speaker A: Well, I remember I asked you because my dad had been watching it, I think on Netflix one day. And I think he tried to watch it on three separate occasions and he just had to stop because it was so boring.
[00:03:42] Speaker B: Yeah, that would be a bad idea.
[00:03:45] Speaker A: But we've decided we are going to reveal our score predictions.
[00:03:52] Speaker B: Right?
[00:03:52] Speaker A: Yeah, early, so that we can kind of be freer to talk about it. So what did you think that I was going to give this movie?
[00:03:58] Speaker B: I thought you were going to give it a 3.5 because it's not like a train wreck of a movie. So I didn't think we were going to go like below three. And it also has Gary oldman.
[00:04:12] Speaker A: I love Gary Oldman.
[00:04:13] Speaker B: Yeah, he's going to go for like 3.5. So that was my prediction.
[00:04:18] Speaker A: Well, so I did give it 3.5.
And for those listening, you brave few, we have our scores locked in. So there's no strategizing, no me saying that, oh, you got my score perfectly. Now I have to try to get yours perfectly. We already know the answers.
We thought that might be a little easier.
But I actually did enjoy this movie. And one of the things I read about it that I thought was a really good point is that it is a spy movie, but not like what you're used to. Now, like, there's movies, you know, there's kingsman, there's all these action spy movies. And this was not like at, uh it's more of a thriller. And it is slow. And I can see why my dad had trouble getting through the movie. But I did really like it at first.
I turned it on and I was like, this is a dark screen and it's lasting really long. I'm like, is this always supposed to happen?
And at the beginning there's like a lot of walking. And you're like, what is going on? And it is kind of hard to keep track of what's going on at the beginning.
But as it went on, I started to get into it. I think part of that was when Tom Hardy came in and I don't remember what his ricky Tar he plays a British agent who is basically like a fugitive because he never came back from the Soviet Union or like he didn't come back when he was supposed to. And for context, this takes place in the 70s during the Cold War. So the big overarching conflict is the US. And Russia.
But when he came into the movie, I thought it was pretty good. And we didn't give a plot summary, but basically it's a little hard to summarize.
[00:06:28] Speaker B: Yeah, like in one sentence. So it's the British Secret Service, which they call the Circus, and there's a mole somewhere in the Circus, and it's one of the top guys. And so there's like five different people at the top of this place, all played by venerable old British actors. And one of them is a secret spy. And Gary Oldman, his job is to find out which one.
[00:06:55] Speaker A: It a good that is a good summary. Sorry, I zoned out for a second.
We'll see if that makes it into the Gary Oldman. Wow.
No, that is a good summary.
Gary Oldman enlists Benedict Cumberbatch, who is like a worker in the circus to that sounded funny.
He's the strong man in the circus to help him and a guy named Mendel, which I'll get to him later. I was very just confused by his character.
[00:07:38] Speaker B: And well, you may not know this about him, but he plays Barty Crouch Senior in the Harry Potter movies.
[00:07:47] Speaker A: I mean, it doesn't surprise me, know, like, everyone in this movie was in Harry Potter at some point. Yeah, except maybe Colin Firth and Tom Hardy. I don't know. Maybe Mark strong. Yeah, well, I mean, there's some overlap.
[00:08:01] Speaker B: Suffice to say, if you're mentioning what I think you're mentioning about his character, he's kind of that way in the Harry Potter movies, too, where you're just.
[00:08:11] Speaker A: Like I don't know who you are.
[00:08:13] Speaker B: Or why you're like his voice is really tight and there's just something severe about him, and you're just like, what's the deal?
[00:08:26] Speaker A: Well, we'll come back because that was like a really random tangent.
[00:08:29] Speaker B: Sorry.
[00:08:30] Speaker A: But no. When Tom Hardy, he basically he goes to Gary Oldman's house and he explains what happened and why know, never came back when he was supposed to. And that's when it got pretty interesting to me. Narration, it was like, good and it's bad. I mean, the general consensus on narration in a movie is like, you're just telling me things that you should be showing me. It's an easy way to just get all the info.
You know, he tells this story about how he was sent to the Soviet Union to try to convert some diplomat to their side, and the guy was useless, but he ended up meeting his wife, and the wife had a lot of intel. And so he starts dating the wife, and she knows that he's an agent, and he tries to basically, hey, I have intel from someone, she wants to come to the US. And it doesn't work.
He a bunch of people end up being killed, like his coworker, like his handler, whatever.
And he has to leave her there. Right. I'm not missing anything there.
[00:09:57] Speaker B: Well, they take her, the Russians.
[00:10:00] Speaker A: Yeah, the Russians, they kidnap her because they know that he had basically been trying to get her out and get to the US. Yeah, I keep saying the US. It's the UK. Sorry.
[00:10:15] Speaker B: And this relates to the plotline.
[00:10:17] Speaker A: I'm sorry. So I said earlier that the whole conflict is between the US. And Russia.
[00:10:23] Speaker B: It is not.
[00:10:23] Speaker A: It is the know, it's like America centric, I guess, because you're so used to the Cold War. It's always like the US. And Russia. But it is the UK and Russia. I mean, the US is mentioned, but it is the UK and Russia. So we're just going to correct that, right?
[00:10:46] Speaker B: So this relates to the plot because what he does, I mean, just to give some context to get her over there. He telegrams the circus and he's like, hey, I have somebody who has information about a mole in the circus.
[00:10:58] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:10:58] Speaker B: And then instead of replying, suddenly everyone begins to die around him and the Russians swoop in and they kidnap this woman. So it's like, Whoa, the wrong person got this message.
[00:11:13] Speaker A: So early in the movie. John Hurt's character is like the leader of the circus and he is forced out along with Gary Oldman and Toby Jones, who is he's so annoying in every movie, but basically him and a bunch like Colin Firth and Kieran Hines. I like how we're just referring to them by the actor names because I don't remember half of these people's names. But they take over. And the whole thing is they have a program where they are getting intel from the Russians and they think they have a source, like a I mean, there's a lot going on.
They they think that Tom Hardy's the Fugitive and they're like, hey, Benedict Cumberbatch. If you see him, you get a hold of us. And then immediately after, Benedict Cumberbatch sees Tom Hardy and it sounds like a confusing movie, and it kind of is, but it's like when you're watching it, as long as you keep paying attention to it's, it's relatively easy to follow. I mean, there's a lot of parts, like a lot of moving parts, a lot of info and plot, and it seems really big.
So if our explanations sound really mean, there's a whole thing where Mark Strong is an agent sent to Budapest to meet with a Russian general, I think, and he gets shot like it was a setup. And then he ends up he's tortured, but then he's sent back to England and he becomes a school teacher.
[00:12:53] Speaker B: Well, from our perspective, we see him get shot and then he just suddenly shows up as a school teacher later in the movie.
[00:13:00] Speaker A: Right. So it is kind of confusing. I mean, you do have to pay attention, but I'm glad you were able.
[00:13:10] Speaker B: To follow it because that was my premier question for you. Because I'll just be honest, when I first saw this movie, I had no idea what was going on.
[00:13:20] Speaker A: Well, and it's hard to explain it back.
[00:13:25] Speaker B: There's a lot of thrillery he said, she said sort of things.
[00:13:30] Speaker A: Right.
[00:13:32] Speaker B: But, yeah, I'm glad you understood it, at least, because I was thinking that I found it really confusing the first time I saw it. And I've seen this movie several times and it took me a few times to be like, oh, I finally understand what's happening and I can follow the logic from shot to shot and things like that.
[00:13:53] Speaker A: Well, there are some things that did confuse me.
I'll get to those later. But I do have more notes to I didn't know if the movie needed, like, a romance angle at all. I guess it worked for the for Tom Hardy and the Russian character Irina because that was, like, basically the whole crux of his how much of it was love and how much of it was just she was an asset that he could use. But the whole thing with Gary Oldman, he's separated from his wife. And the more you think about it, it is really relevant to the movie because I don't know, that's kind of his big issue, if that makes sense. I don't know. Does that make sense at all? Maybe a little, but well, they talk about how he met man, there's so much to explain. The next movie is going to be so much easier to explain.
But the Russian leader, I guess, of I guess their equivalent of the circus. His name is Carla, and Gary Oldman tells the story about how he tried to get him to defect, like, way back when, and he wouldn't. Do you know, Carla knows that Gary Oldman's wife is kind of his Achilles heel. Like, his love for his wife is his Achilles heel. And that comes up a little later when the mole is revealed. And I mean I don't know, man. Like, trying to explain this movie. I've said it like, 50 times, but it's really difficult.
[00:15:40] Speaker B: Yeah, so you gave it a 3.5 so far. You've said that you enjoyed it.
What did you not enjoy about it then?
[00:15:51] Speaker A: Well, I think it's not that I so much didn't I mean, I don't enjoy that. It's really hard to summarize. Usually we don't have that issue with movies, but it's nothing that I really disliked. It's just more like that's as high as I was willing to go with it. Okay, that's as good as I thought it was. Now we will move ahead to the reveal of the mole who was which there were a couple of parts where I had to rewind it. So Gary Oldman goes to the safe house where they're supposed to meet with the Russian diplomat and the mole. And I had to planted they've planted.
[00:16:36] Speaker B: Ricky Tar in order to incite whoever the mole is to run to this house and meet up with the Russians.
[00:16:44] Speaker A: And that scene kind of confused me at first. I think I had to rewind that because Benedict Cumberbatch runs in and there's people talking and it's the Russian diplomat guy who's really like, a military guy. He's not, like, a diplomat. And Gary Oldman is just sitting there with a gun pointed and they show Colin Firth. I'm like wait, what? Just like, why is this diplomat like that's? That's the go later. Like, Gary Oldman is talking to Colin Firth and they're discussing him being the mole. But I was like, Is that all they're going to show?
Am I supposed to now assume that he's the mole? But what was interesting is the Toby Jones and Kieran Hines and well, you know, their whole thing is they thought that they were only giving their Russian contact, like, not very useful information. And then he was giving them all this good stuff when it was the like, they end up with egg on their face because Colin Firth is the mole, and he's giving this guy all the real information.
And that was pretty cool because they show at the end, Toby Jones, he's just all dejected and walking sadly through.
[00:17:59] Speaker B: The.
[00:18:04] Speaker A: Evil Colin Firth. I like it. But when they showed him kind of at the party, they flashback to a party and he kind of has this look on his face. And I was like, okay, you kind of lost me there, evil Colin Firth.
The end felt a little too seventy s to me because the whole time it's like this British thriller, and they do, like, some 70s music every now and then. But it felt like Argo at the end, where they're just, like, playing this music and showing where everyone ended up, and you're like, this feels like a different movie. I think the biggest thing that I liked and there are so many moving parts to this that I wasn't even 100% sure.
So we don't know what happened to Irina, the Russian defector that was with Tom Hardy. We know she got kidnapped. And then Mark Strong is explaining to Gary Oldman when he was being tortured, and they show a woman brought in, and they're like, hey, do you know this woman? He says no. And they just immediately shoot her. And I was like, Wait a minute, is that like it obviously was, but it was also enough of I don't know, it was fast enough that you're like, Wait, was that her? And then at the end, when they're trying to get Tom Hardy to play along with this, get the mole out, he's like, well, we need to go get Oldman's like, yeah, okay, we'll do our best. And he knows that she's dead. But then at the end, it's like, you realize you're like, oh, my gosh. Yeah, she was dead. I don't know. For some reason, it didn't 100% connect with me at first. That that's what happened. And then you're like, oh, wait, so there's like, yeah, no, this isn't happening.
So, overall, as I muddled through my summary of this movie, I thought it was pretty good. It developed. At first, it was kind of boring and confusing, but as I was able to follow it, I really enjoyed it.
But once, like I said, there's a lot of info and a lot going on that they actually managed to keep pretty well. In a two hour movie, it's not much longer than 2 hours. And I thought they did really well with that because how many movies with all this info would try to be 3 hours long? And it was very taut. I thought that was really impressive. But then it's like, once you know the whole picture, it's a little disappointing.
I went back on Wikipedia and just read the plot summary and you're like, it's actually a really simple story once all the pieces are there, and you're like, oh, so basically there was a mole. It's colin firth. Mark Strong kills Colin Firth at the end.
[00:20:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:54] Speaker A: And that's basically the entire plot.
So I think Three and a Half was a fair score for it.
Do you have anything to add on that?
[00:21:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I've got a couple thoughts, but I'll try to keep them short.
[00:21:10] Speaker A: Mendel useless.
Don't even know who he was.
[00:21:16] Speaker B: Obviously some character from the book who maybe had bigger significance based on a John Le Carre novel who was, like.
[00:21:25] Speaker A: A huge suspense writer.
[00:21:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
So I've got a few thoughts sort of bouncing off what you were saying. First of all, talking about arena dying this time through, I was just struck by how tragic this story is. Everyone ends up sad except Gary Oldman. Basically, like, Guitar Arena dies, benedict Cumberbatch has to get rid of his like, you can just go down the list.
[00:21:53] Speaker A: And although maybe now he can get him back, now that it's like, hey, we're not being bugged anymore. Maybe.
[00:21:58] Speaker B: I don't know.
So that struck me.
Another thing was based on the John Lecare thing.
So this movie has a huge cast, like you said, and it's really prestigious. Like, it has a huge cast. It sort of purports itself. Like, it's this very profound and sophisticated and artsy thing.
But I agree that once you understand what's going on, it's just sort of like, oh, it's a little disappointing.
I think that's true in the plot sense. The plot is actually really simple, but also just like, in the filmic sense.
I don't know that there's much profound material to this.
[00:22:53] Speaker A: It's like if you made everything in it chronological, which obviously would kind of ruin it, you'd be like, oh, this is really obvious. Yeah, but I think a lot of mysteries are like that, where it's like, once you know it, you're like, oh, okay, that wasn't really that complicated.
[00:23:14] Speaker B: Along with that, I think this movie's biggest enemy is the fact that it takes itself so seriously.
Even though I started out trash talking this, I really like this movie.
[00:23:28] Speaker A: I enjoyed I know, like, Three and a Half doesn't sound like a huge score, but I did really like it.
[00:23:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
And honestly, the first time I saw it, I would have probably rated it lower than three and a half. Now that I've seen it a few times, my score has actually raised considerably. Whereas now I would call it, like, a four narwhal movie for me.
And the reason is because it just took me that many viewings to realize that there's some really awesome and cool stuff going on. But you just can't see that the first time because the movie is so intent on everything being so subtle and understated. And, like, there's this scene during the party flashback where the focus is on Gary Oldman sitting there looking at his wife. And the first time you see it, all this shot seems to be is Gary Oldman sitting and looking at his wife. And then he turns around and sees Colin Firth smiling at him. Later, if you see it again, you might realize that the shot is Gary Oldman sitting looking at his wife. But in the background, completely out of focus, is Colin Firth sitting down and looking at his wife and smiling. And then when Gary Oldman turns around, there's this really quick shift where he turns towards him and makes it look like he's and it's so understated. And you just would never notice it unless you've seen it a few times. And there's just tons of things like that where it's like, that is such a good performance. That is such a great moment.
And it's so understated. It's almost detrimentally understated.
I think it sort of shoots itself into the foot. Like a lot of people would have enjoyed the movie better if it surfaced those things a little more.
[00:25:31] Speaker A: I like, though, at least like you said, it does take itself very seriously. I do like at least, though, that it's like a spy movie in a different sense.
[00:25:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
It is much more mature, I think. I remember yeah, I remember seeing a review when it came out that was like, this is a spy movie for adults or something.
[00:25:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Which is not fair because have you ever watched the first Kingsman movie? The movie is bonkers and it's amazing.
[00:26:00] Speaker B: Yeah, but you know what? They it's it's a gentleman's spy.
[00:26:07] Speaker A: I think that's the term when you think about the cast is perfect. It just fits perfectly. Like, oh, yes, we've got Gary Oldman. We've got Mark strong. This is me pretending to be British, but we've got a gentleman's spy movie.
That is what it feels.
Yeah. It does take itself seriously. Like, really seriously. They actually talked about making a sequel because I guess there were three books.
[00:26:36] Speaker B: Oh, really?
[00:26:38] Speaker A: There's like a trilogy about his character and his name is Smiley. Like, come on. That's a horrible name for a that.
[00:26:45] Speaker B: I'm surprised you didn't mention this, but Gary Oldman does a phenomenal job, way better than the character Smiley sort of merits, I think.
[00:26:57] Speaker A: Well, and I remember because we were talking about this a little and, you're know, like, this isn't his best performance or something. Because, you know, I love Gary Oldman. And basically I think you were trying to temper my expectations because it's not.
[00:27:12] Speaker B: Like Darkest Hour, where it's like, watch Gary Oldman show up. It's very much like this is a pretty unexceptional role he's playing, but so much effort. So even though it's not a showpiece and you don't really get to see that effort really come out, there's just a lot of moments where it's like, wow, right.
[00:27:33] Speaker A: That's where the understated works really well.
He is very good in this movie, but I'm like, I would have loved a sequel to this, but this movie came out ten years ago and it's like, would you do one now? I mean, Gary Oldman. He's kind of ageless.
The way they made him look, he looked older, I think, in the movie anyway. So it's like you could I don't know if anyone would want to see it, but I'd watch it.
But no, I thought it was really good.
Tinker taylor soldier spy. Do you have any well, okay, I didn't realize. And this is one where I think it's like they assumed something that the audience would know and the audience would have no idea. So the name Tinker Taylor, Soldier Spy comes from, like, a nursery rhyme, and John Hurt's character is naming off all the people he thinks could be the mole, and he's using like, one is Tinker, one is Taylor, one is then, you know, they say, like, well, we'll skip Sailor because it's too close to Taylor. And they go to Poor man, I think. And so there is this whole thing, and I don't know if I'm going to get it right, but it's like, Tinker Taylor, soldier, Sailor, rich man, poor man, beggar man, thief.
But I'm like, no American is going to know that. And again, it's not like every movie has to be designed for Americans. But no, that's where the title came from. And I was like, okay, that kind of makes sense, but is also kind of confusing.
Do you have anything more to add on this movie?
[00:29:11] Speaker B: No.
[00:29:13] Speaker A: So I will tell the audience. It is definitely worth watching. My summary of the movie was not very good. I'll admit that it's hard to summarize because there's a lot going on and there's just a lot of moving pieces. But if you watch it and you told me this, don't take notes, and I did take some notes, but I tried to keep them light because you need to pay attention. And as long as you're paying attention, you need to pay a lot of things.
[00:29:45] Speaker B: Like that shot where Colin Firth is out of focus in the like those sorts of things happen which are really key to you being able to understand and get the most out of this movie.
[00:29:58] Speaker A: It's like a big story, but it's also a small story, if that makes sense.
The scope is big, but it's also like, once you watch it and once you can understand what's happening, it's not that big.
So, yeah, tinker Taylor, Soldier Spy, it was a three and a half star movie to me. I could give it four, but I mean, I locked into what I have.
But it was a good movie.
I'm glad we watched it because I was hoping it wouldn't be really boring and it's not really exciting, but it's a good movie. So we are going to move on to the movie I chose for jello, which is The American President 1995 film directed by Rob Reiner and written by Aaron Sorkin, which can I just start with how that's one of the greatest combos probably ever?
They also did a few good men. I mean, Rob Reiner is an incredible director. He had a stretch of, like, I wish I had it pulled up right now. But he had a stretch of movies in The Few Missteps, where they're just, like, incredible. He did stand by me. He did The Princess Bride, The American President. He did a few good men. I'm now going out of order, but When Harry Met Sally, this dude was on fire. And Aaron Sorkin wrote A Few Good Men. And, I mean, I think he might have been a playwright first because A Few Good Men was a play first. But it's just they're a great combo. And, I mean, you know, I love The West Wing, which we'll get into in this one because there's a lot of parallels. But going back to the big casts we mentioned, it stars michael Douglas Annette Benning Martin Sheen michael J. Fox and Richard Dreyfus. And there's also John Mahoney, who played the dad in Frazier. I don't know if you know that.
[00:31:57] Speaker B: I do not.
[00:31:58] Speaker A: He was Annette Benning's boss.
And Wendy Malek also has a small role, but that's a pretty big know. I'll give a plot summary real quick since we obviously keep forgetting to do that. But Michael Douglas plays the president, who is a widower, and he meets a lobbyist named Annette Benning. Named Annette Benning. No, her name is Sydney Ellen Wade, which they always, like they almost always have to say It's Wade, but they almost always have to say Sydney Ellen Wade. Like, they say the full thing, but he's, like, immediately smitten with her. And it's basically just they pursue a relationship and what comes along with that when you're the president dating a lobbyist? And it's a very simple story, but we'll get a little more into that. But this plot is so much easier to summarize than Tinker Tail.
So I just chose it for you because it's kind of like when I did Collateral, where I saw it on the list of potential I have a list of potential movies for you.
And I saw it and I was like, yes, this is perfect. Because it's like, who wouldn't like it?
So I thought after watching it that you would give it three which sounds completely counter to what I just said.
But I don't know, after watching it, I was like I wasn't as impressed with it as I thought I would be. And I've seen it at least maybe not completely through, but, like, almost all of it.
And there were just some things about it I was like, Maybe he won't like it as much as I thought. So I thought you would give it three.
So you did not give it three.
[00:33:49] Speaker B: I did. Not give it three. Actually funny that you are like, give it 3.5, but I could have given it four. I locked in four. But as I'd been thinking about it, I'm like, I could have given it 3.5.
And the reason is actually so a lot of the times when I see a movie, I feel like maybe what I would give for the objective evaluation kind of corresponds pretty closely to how much I enjoyed know in this case, I feel like there's a little bit of a difference because the emotional evan. My name's not Evan. My name's Jello.
[00:34:28] Speaker A: Yeah, we've decided know it's not going to be a huge secret. We have names. If they come out, we actually have names. We actually have names.
[00:34:36] Speaker B: So the emotional response, personal response is a 4.0. Because I just thought it was really pleasant. It was just charming.
[00:34:46] Speaker A: That is like the perfect charming is like the perfect description for it.
[00:34:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Like Michael Douglas. Annabt Benning. Both their characters are likable. They get along, they're in love. There's not really any personal tension that happens.
[00:35:00] Speaker A: There's a good supporting cast.
[00:35:02] Speaker B: There's a good supporting chat. It's just pleasant. So it was like, yeah, I like this. This is fun. But as I've thought about it more, it's like I think that's basically as far as you can take it, because the moment you start to try to take it any more seriously, it just becomes ridiculous on many levels.
First of all, I just think the conceit is bizarre. Like, we're going to make a romance movie about someone dating the president.
How strange that Americans feel like that's acceptable and entertainment they want to go see.
I guess there's maybe some sort of parallel to like Princess Diaries falling in love with the Prince sort of thing.
But I just think of other but those are like the Prince. This is like a venerable world leader. It's like, would you make a movie about the leader of North Korea falling in love? The leader of South Korea falling it's just kind of bizarre to see that office sort of appropriated to this. Let's make a movie about falling. It's just weird.
[00:36:21] Speaker A: Well, I think part of it is we haven't had a president that was like a widower for a long time.
It has happened, but I can't even think of the last time. Probably 100 years.
[00:36:38] Speaker B: Well, I mean, that's part of it. But I think what mainly seems weird to me is like, this is a script that was produced for entertainment and that got greenlit because studio execs were like, yeah, everybody's going to be really interested in that. It's like, why would we be so interested in seeing fantasies about our president falling in love?
[00:37:02] Speaker A: Well, I think part of it might have been that it was Rob Reiner and Aaron Sorkin and they had done A Few Good Men a few years earlier. So maybe there was like that goodwill where it's like, okay, we're going to trust you on this.
It is, though, and I don't know if I wrote this down.
I think this movie reminds me of like a 40s movie, like some 40s romantic comedy you would watch because there's a lot of awe shucks kind of stuff in this where it feels very old school. I can just imagine a movie in the 40s being made where it's like, what if someone was dating the president?
Is it just me or does it kind of have that feel? And it's like this movie came out in the 90s.
[00:37:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it does because like I said, everybody gets along. Everyone's fresh faced and decent.
[00:37:57] Speaker A: I mean, there really isn't much conflict. The most conflict in it is like, what's going to happen politically. And because he's dating her and Richard Dreyfus's character is an opposing he's a congressman who's going to run for president. And he tries to use all this against him. And that's pretty much the conflict, is like, how are they going to navigate the relationship? But there's not really much conflict.
The stakes seem like they should be really high, but they don't feel like it.
[00:38:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:40] Speaker A: So you did lock in at four. I did lock in at I gave I thought you'd give it a yeah. What else did you think about know? I thought, like, Sheen was was great. I mean, Martin Sheen is always well, playing the chief of staff.
[00:38:58] Speaker B: Martin Sheen was really good just to keep on the because this is why there's a dichotomy for me emotionally. I thought it was a four, but as I've continued to think about it, it's like, no, this movie is more like a 3.5 or so because you've got that whole ridiculousness with just the concept. But then you have this added layer of ridiculousness where it's like the agenda. And this is not meant to be a political critique or anything. I'm not taking a stance on there. But what I think is really laughable about it is just how incredibly partisan it is.
Michael Douglas is the president of a certain political party, and he is just a good guy. Like, he doesn't do anything wrong in the entire movie. And he's upstanding and he's honorable and everyone absolutely and just yada, yada, yada, yada, yada. And the opposing faction, they're literal gremlin monsters who it's just laughable.
[00:40:12] Speaker A: Can I tell you that's why I didn't think you would like it as we were watching it? And that is an Sorkin thing.
[00:40:20] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And this is not just like my opinion. I saw on Wikipedia that Obama made reference to this movie and he called it like an Aaron Sorkin liberal fantasy. And it was sort of like a disparaging. Like, even Obama thinks that this movie is a little ridiculous in how much.
[00:40:39] Speaker A: Of a it is very like, this.
[00:40:45] Speaker B: Is sort of a quick, crude term, but it's sort of like a wet dream fantasy for yes, it is.
So just as I've been thinking about that and realizing just, like, how laughable it is in that direction. It's like, I can't take this movie any more seriously than just being a charming little love story that gives you warm, fuzzy feelings.
Because past that is just ridiculous.
And just to reiterate, that's not to reflect on the policies that Aaron Sorkin holds or endorses in the movie.
[00:41:30] Speaker A: It's just to say that it's very obvious.
[00:41:33] Speaker B: It's very obvious.
And just the fact, just the disparity between how much of good people and good heroes the one political party is portrayed as compared to the other political party who are like literal monsters.
[00:41:53] Speaker A: It's richard dreyfus at his slimiest.
[00:41:55] Speaker B: Yeah, we talked a little in this day and age, maybe it's maybe a little bit of an idealistic thing to say. One political party isn't comprised of monsters. But I feel like theoretically, everyone's a human in this system.
[00:42:19] Speaker A: Well, so I'll help you out a little. So The West Wing was the show that Aaron Sorkin did a few years after this. And it is similar in that, and that was another critique of it, is that it's almost the exact same thing where the one party is pure and perfect. I mean, Martin Sheen is the president in that. How could he not be?
But they do at least in that they get a little more into politics, is everyone they might have the best intentions, but that doesn't mean that they're going to play by the rules on either side. And they do it. At least not every character on either side is perfect or evil. So it's like, maybe he realized from this that maybe I need a little more nuance in my character.
[00:43:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I guess that's kind of what I'm trying to say, is just that it's so obviously partisan that I just want to laugh at it.
I'm not disparaging it. I'm not criticizing it.
[00:43:34] Speaker A: No, I see what you're saying. It's ridiculous. There's no nuance in it at all.
[00:43:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
It's a naive vision of the world.
[00:43:45] Speaker A: Really, and for as good of a writer as Aaron Sorkin is. And he is.
Yeah, that is a flaw. And I mean, the speech that Michael Douglas gives at the end of the Know when he's doing the press conference, which he has a great line, uh, Richard Dreyfuss's character, who we talked a little about just in our text thread, the movie Red. And Richard Dreyfuss is in that. And he also plays like a slimy guy. He's really good at playing slimy, which is funny because he was in Jaws and was a great character in, uh and he's know I'm Bob Rumson. I think that was his name. And I'm running for president. And then Michael Douglas is like, I'm Andrew Shepard, and I am the president. You're like, oh, it is super corny. But you get I mean, that is the one thing you can say the speech he gives is not nuanced again in the slightest. And that's fine. That's what Aaron Sorkin wants to do.
But the way it's delivered is still really well done. So at least there is like, the writing in that scene. And Michael Douglas's performance in that scene is know, he manages to make it actually not completely because you're right, it is a corny line, but he sells it.
[00:45:10] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's worth noting that Aaron Sorkin, he is a really good writer.
[00:45:16] Speaker A: The walk and talk. Oh, my God, the walk and talk. There's not a lot of the walking for next week. Is there walk and talk in this?
[00:45:23] Speaker B: Oh, there's tons.
[00:45:24] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. So there wasn't a ton of walk and talk in this.
The West Wing, I think, is really where he got into the walk and talk, which for those who don't know and thanks to TV tropes for my Michael Douglas take just there, but them and Wikipedia, basically, you can read this. The walk and talk is rewatchables. The walk and talk is a good way to get dialogue. You know, we talked about how narration can be kind know too much, but it's like their character is just walking fast through a hallway, talking about what's going and like, normally that would be but like, because just the way it's filmed and the way they're doing, like, it actually works.
[00:46:06] Speaker B: It's Aaron Sorkin. So it's all this really glittery, witty dialogue at Fast Fire.
It's always some important person having really fast conversation with their.
[00:46:21] Speaker A: Um but side note, The West Wing is an incredible show and Martin Sheen is a better president than Michael Douglas. I mean, we could have a whole discussion. And I've done podcasts. I did an episode once where our friend Ronnie and I debated who was a better president, harrison Ford in Air Force One or Martin Sheen in The West Wing. You could also throw in Bill pullman in Independence Day. I mean, there's a ton of great movie presidents we could do like a whole episode on.
You know, Martin Sheen is a great president in The West Wing, and that is just a really good show. I mean, Aaron Sorkin left it after the fourth season and there's seven seasons, but it's so to I started watching through it and I got stuck in the third season and stopped. I mean, the problem with trying to binge dramas are that they're usually like 40 minutes at least, so it's not always easy to binge them.
But that was just a random diatribe about nothing. But I noted with this movie, like I told you at the beginning of it, I actually didn't like it as much as I thought I liked it. I thought I liked this movie a lot more than I did. And I think part of it was that it was very cheesy and like, awe shucks.
But I don't know, it is fun and it's charming. It's just not as good as I thought it was or like that I remembered it being.
But yeah, that's all. I think I really have to add on that. Do you have anything else to add?
[00:48:02] Speaker B: No.
I hope we don't get canceled because we mentioned politics.
[00:48:10] Speaker A: I thought we handled it pretty sure.
Well, no, because I mean, that is a critique of Aaron Sorkin. That is an issue that people have with him. And as a writer, regardless of what side you fall down on, you have to be nuanced.
I think if you try to hit someone over the head with your message, whatever it is, like, you're not going to get them.
But anyway, so we already said what our scores were, but we shall recap to give the final tally. So Tinker Taylor, soldier Spy, you thought that I would give it a three and a half. I gave it a three and a half. So you got it. Exactly.
The American President, I thought that you would give it a three. You gave it a four, which is a difference of one, which means for the 6th straight episode, every episode, you have won.
[00:49:14] Speaker B: Yes, I did.
[00:49:19] Speaker A: I don't know, we've talked about this before. It's like maybe I should just assume you're going to give something a three and a half, like play the ODS or something, I don't know. Yeah, but the problem is I pick movies that when I pick them, I really want you to like them. So I'm like, oh, he's going to love this.
[00:49:39] Speaker B: You got to put it aside.
[00:49:41] Speaker A: I know. Emotion.
I don't even know how long all is fair in Jello and Oliver.
But no, we have our movies, which it's so funny because this whole week we were like, well, do we watch movies? Because I wasn't really in a position to podcast because I wasn't at home, but I was like, do we watch movies now? And then we ended up not doing it. But we've been talking about the movies that we wanted to pick and we got them.
So would you like to tell me your movie for me?
[00:50:17] Speaker B: Yes, my movie for you for next week is Steve Jobs, the 2015 movie. Not the one with Ashton Kutcher, but the one with what's his face?
[00:50:30] Speaker A: Michael Fassbender.
[00:50:31] Speaker B: Michael Fassbender. Yeah. And written by Aaron Sorgen.
[00:50:35] Speaker A: Ah. And you said there's a lot of walk and talk. I'm so excited.
[00:50:38] Speaker B: The whole thing nice.
[00:50:41] Speaker A: And you said, directed by Danny Boyle, who I don't think I've seen anything of his, but I know he's done quite a bit.
But no, that's exciting because you sent me a list of things and was like, have you seen these? And when you had Steve Jobs, I was like, no, do I have this?
I didn't even remember that I own this movie. But no, I'm excited for that because I haven't seen a lot of sorkin's recent stuff. And I know he didn't direct it, but I haven't seen a lot of his recent stuff, so I'm very interested. My movie for you, and this is where I'm going to run into trouble again is Little Miss Sunshine, which is one of my absolute favorite movies in the world.
[00:51:31] Speaker B: I'm sensing trouble.
[00:51:35] Speaker A: I'm going to have to not game the system but put emotion aside without getting too much into it because I don't even really remember that there's two directors, I don't remember their names, but it is basically the R rated Napoleon Dynamite about a dysfunctional family going to a beauty pageant. And I'm so excited. It is one of those you said it was kind of inevitable that it was going to come up, and it was because that's in my top, I have a top eleven on letterboxed, which now that we're not so afraid to use our names, maybe I'll give my letterboxed account at some point. But it's in my top eleven movies of all time.
[00:52:23] Speaker B: Is it number eleven?
[00:52:25] Speaker A: No, I don't remember where it is. It might be like seven or eight.
[00:52:28] Speaker B: So it's in your top seven.
[00:52:30] Speaker A: It's really I love it.
But again, I'll have to keep emotion out of my prediction for you.
[00:52:41] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:52:42] Speaker A: No. So next week, episode seven, the Force Awakens. Just kidding. And also for the third time in a row, I forgot I was going to say that we were watching the fate of the furious, and then one day I'm actually going to pick that for you. But as a joke, I was going to be like, all right, we're watching the Fate of the Furious.
[00:53:03] Speaker B: I would be so excited. I want to see those movies.
[00:53:09] Speaker A: Well, someday. I've got a big queue of movies for you.
So, yeah. Episode seven. Next week will be Steve Jobs and Little Miss Sunshine. So I am Oliver.
[00:53:23] Speaker B: And I am Jello.
[00:53:24] Speaker A: And this has been the differing cinematic tastes of Jello and Oliver oop.
